Episode 5

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Published on:

21st Dec 2022

A "Super Sexy AF" IP Lesson for Creators w/ THE IP Professor

From creating his own blog in law school, to securing his dream job in IP, and creating fun and engaging content around copyrights, trademarks, patents, and personality rights - Tony juggles a lot! Content creators can learn a great deal not just from the subject matter of his videos, but also his journey in how creating content was essential to where he is now.

Tony Iliakostas, aka the Professor T, is the Senior Manager of ABC News Rights and Clearances and is in his 4th year as an Adjunct Professor at New York Law School, teaching Entertainment Law and Intellectual Property. In his role at ABC News, Tony handles complex copyright licensing for various ABC News programs, including “Good Morning America,” “20/20,” “Nightline,” and other related ABC News branded programs. Tony also has experience in personality rights licensing, having handled the licensing of various dead celebrities including Albert Einstein, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and other iconic celebrities in his role as Business Affairs Manager at Greenlight. Tony started @TheIPProfessor as way to encourage, educate, and entertain people about the wonderful world of intellectual property. He collectively has approximately 3,500 loyal followers on social media who are eager to learn about IP.

Sit back, and listen closely to Professor T as they recount their journey to becoming a law professor, senior manager of Rights & Clearances, and content creator !

Give Tony a Follow at his social links!

Instagram: @theipprofessor

Youtube: @theipprofessor

Twitter: @theipprofessor

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Transcript
Gabe:

Hey everybody.

Gabe:

Welcome back to another episode of Rise and Flow.

Gabe:

We're your host, Ray and Gabe from Inflow Law Group

Ray:

and today's episode our guest is Tony.

Ray:

I also known as Professor t.

Ray:

He's the manager of ABC news, rights and clearances in his fourth year

Ray:

as an adjunct professor at New York Law School teaching entertainment,

Ray:

law and intellectual property.

Ray:

Yeah,

Gabe:

and you know, in

Gabe:

his role in ABC News, , professor T or Tony, , he handles

Gabe:

complex copyright licensing,

Gabe:

, for a bunch of news programs,

Gabe:

America, 2020, , Nightline, and a bunch of

Gabe:

other related ABC news branded

Gabe:

programs.

Ray:

Additionally, Tony has experience in personality rights,

Ray:

licensing, even handling licensing of various dead celebrities, including

Ray:

Albert Einstein, Reverend Dr.

Ray:

Martin Luther King, and other iconic celebrities in his roles

Ray:

as business affairs over at

Ray:

Greenlight.

Ray:

Yeah.

Ray:

But

Gabe:

we know him as the IP professor on social media.

Gabe:

And,

Gabe:

Yeah, he, he started the IP professor as a way to encourage and educate

Gabe:

and entertain people about the wonderful world of intellectual

Gabe:

property.

Gabe:

And he collectively

Gabe:

has about 3,500 loyal followers on social media ready to learn about a ip, including

Gabe:

ourselves.

Ray:

And yeah, and in this discussion we talk a lot about intellectual property

Ray:

and how it pertains to the content creation space and on social media.

Ray:

Yeah,

Gabe:

I'm really stoked to have yeah, he's definitely one of our favorite

Gabe:

social media friends that we've made.

Gabe:

And our friendship is kind of.

Gabe:

Grown past the social media platforms and yeah.

Gabe:

He's such a great guy.

Gabe:

Yeah.

Ray:

So if you're a content creator or business owner and wanna learn a little

Ray:

bit more ip don't bogged searches.

Ray:

Listen, podcast, follow.

Ray:

We're excited.

Ray:

All right, let's

Gabe:

bring them on.

Gabe:

Professor T, how you doing?

Gabe:

Thank you for joining

Gabe:

us.

Tony:

Thanks a lot, Gabe and Ray.

Tony:

It's so nice seeing you guys and being.

Ray:

Yeah, absolutely.

Ray:

Thank you for just jumping on with us.

Ray:

When we launched the podcast, we were looking forward to this episode.

Ray:

Obviously, , you know, we, we interact through social media and

Ray:

we're very big fans of the content you post and kinda like your journey

Ray:

of becoming like who you are today.

Ray:

And yeah, we're just really excited because obviously our audience and our

Ray:

clients could gain a lot from, just having an expert on ip, come on and chat about

Ray:

the differences of like different IP and how it pertains to what they're doing.

Ray:

So, real quick, let's jump into it.

Ray:

Professor T ip, when did you first like understand that IP was right for you?

Ray:

Like was it before you went to law school?

Ray:

Was it during law school?

Ray:

We're really excited to.

Ray:

How you became the IP professor.

Ray:

So please, you

Tony:

have the stage.

Tony:

Well, first off, I'm gonna ven Venmo you the $50 later for call me an IP expert,

Tony:

. So just make sure you remind me later.

Tony:

Anyway, , going back to the going back to just like how I,

Tony:

I got started in this career.

Tony:

It, it was a, it was a bit more of like the unconventional route.

Tony:

I never, I never really knew to begin with that I was interested in the law until

Tony:

probably by the time I got to college.

Tony:

I had such a weird trajectory and I think every kid does of what they

Tony:

wanted to do when they grow up.

Tony:

So, for example, when I was a kindergarten, for whatever reason,

Tony:

I wanted to be a zookeeper.

Tony:

And somehow that transitioned into me being a, a, what was it?

Tony:

An investment banker.

Tony:

And even then was just like so perplexing cuz I was good at

Tony:

math, but like not that good.

Tony:

And certainly high school humbled me tremendously when it came to math.

Tony:

So I knew that.

Tony:

I had to figure something out, but my mom is actually a federally certified

Tony:

interpreter and translator in Spanish.

Tony:

For the Department of Justice, and I'm, and I'm half Cuban, so I've grown

Tony:

up, learning the language in, but, but seeing and learning the language

Tony:

through the lens of what my mom does.

Tony:

And she actually does a lot of translation for criminal oriented cases.

Tony:

So she's worked on drug cartel cases, human trafficking with

Tony:

every cartel you can imagine, oa.

Tony:

D d P The Dominicans don't play.

Tony:

She's been involved in, every type of money laundering scandal that

Tony:

has involved Colombians and other nationalities or ethnicities.

Tony:

So it's been a weird flavor of things.

Tony:

Her, I would say her greatest claim to fame was she was involved in the

Tony:

94 Wall Street Center bombing trial.

Tony:

She actually interpreted for the Dominican gas attendant that pumped

Tony:

the gas in the Ryder truck that blew up the day of those bombings.

Tony:

So she's done like a bevy of different things.

Tony:

So I was exposed to a lot of, like the law throughout my

Tony:

childhood, seeing what she did.

Tony:

And I would say by the time I got to high, by the time I got to college, I

Tony:

knew that maybe law school was a career that I would take sincerely with me.

Tony:

The question was, did I want to go down the criminal route that

Tony:

my mom has been so exposed to, or did I wanna do something else?

Tony:

So it was very much a navigation, but I would say I figured it out once I got

Tony:

to my junior year when I started using when I started studying my, my major,

Tony:

which was communications and media studies, and I thought maybe media law

Tony:

would be an avenue for me to go down.

Tony:

And then that my, that, that was a temporary thing because

Tony:

then I quickly watched Jerry McGuire and I saw sports law.

Tony:

That's what I wanna do.

Tony:

wanna be a sports agent.

Tony:

So I went to New York Law School.

Tony:

I started in 2011 and I quickly learned that the sports

Tony:

agent field is not all that.

Tony:

It's crack cracked up to be.

Tony:

It's just very cutthroat, conniving there's a lot of competition.

Tony:

And at the end of the day, I thought that the only way I could make a viable

Tony:

career, The sports agent world is if I joined the likes of CAA or William

Tony:

Morrison Endeavor, or Rock Nation or any of these other powerhouse sports agencies.

Tony:

So I took a step back and I realized maybe being a sports agent wasn't

Tony:

right for me, and especially my temperament, my personality of who I was.

Tony:

, let me learn about sports law as a broad avenue.

Tony:

So during my one L year, I attended a sports law symposium in New York

Tony:

Law School, and they had typical break into sports law panel.

Tony:

And I found that the way you could break it to the industry is if you

Tony:

did something unique and creative.

Tony:

So for me, I thought maybe doing a block would be the way to go.

Tony:

So I started my own video blog during my one l year called Law and Batting Order.

Tony:

If you're a law and order fan and a baseball fan, you

Tony:

totally got that reference.

Tony:

But I, I started Law and batting order and I did, I basically treated it like

Tony:

the legal version of Sports Center where every single week I talked about a sports

Tony:

law headline that had a legal implication.

Tony:

So X Player signs a five year deal for $125 million.

Tony:

Great opportunity to talk.

Tony:

Everyone else, ptsd, worst nightmare, offered acceptance consideration.

Tony:

So I talked about that.

Tony:

Or I, at the time I was starting law and bating order was when the NBA

Tony:

players' lockout was just wrapping up.

Tony:

So I talked about kind of like the legal implications of something like that.

Tony:

I even talked about Aaron Hernandez, who was originally arrested for obstruction

Tony:

of justice, eventually charged with murder of killing Aspe friend Ode Lloyd.

Tony:

But on the obstruction of justice charge, every news outlet wasn't

Tony:

explaining what the statutory language in Massachusetts was about that.

Tony:

So I used that as an opportunity on law in batting order to talk about that language.

Tony:

. So I did a variety of diff these different topics, and then eventually

Tony:

I found that IP was the one area of law that I was very passionate about

Tony:

talking about on law and batting order, more in the context of trademarks,

Tony:

but there was just something about it.

Tony:

So I took coursework during my tool year that was focused on ip.

Tony:

I found a great internship at abc news, rights and clearances when

Tony:

I was wrapping up my two L year going into three L which was very

Tony:

much in the realm of copyright law.

Tony:

I was completely saturated in this world.

Tony:

And I think that it, it really was that subject matter that

Tony:

really exposed me to ip.

Tony:

And I think that's kind of what what kicked the tires and,

Tony:

let me hit the ground running.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

That, and

Gabe:

that's, that's a great, I mean, way to get into it.

Gabe:

Right.

Gabe:

And then I

Tony:

love the fact that you.

Tony:

and they, again, I'm near and dear.

Gabe:

Obviously it's a criminal law too, so I I,

Tony:

I like the fact that you, you were exposed to that and that

Tony:

was kind of initially your, your

Gabe:

first thought, right?

Gabe:

And then realizing that that's just,

Tony:

you weren't passionate about that.

Tony:

Now obviously you wear a lot of hats.

Tony:

I think it's an understatement, understatement of the year, right.

Tony:

in your career.

Tony:

And can you, can you

Gabe:

tell us a little bit about that and how,

Gabe:

Obviously how your career kind of took off the beginnings of it and how you,

Tony:

You kind of started wearing all these, these different hat.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

I, I think it's been a very interesting path that I've taken in my career.

Tony:

I, I.

Tony:

What really hit what really set the stage for everything was that

Tony:

internship right after my two all year at abc news, rights and clearances.

Tony:

Cause I know that during my time in law school, it was very hard to

Tony:

just even get an internship period.

Tony:

I wasn't competing on, moot court.

Tony:

I wasn't on law review.

Tony:

I had a, I had pretty much a GPA that was south of 3.0 and I, I graduated

Tony:

with a 3.03 gpa, 67% on my class.

Tony:

And I still tell my students to this day that that's a, that's a accolade that

Tony:

I'm very proud of because that was hard earned and not, that was not, something

Tony:

being served to me on a silver platter.

Tony:

And then the clot removed and, was served that it was something

Tony:

that I actually earned over time.

Tony:

So, all that to say during my, throughout my time in law

Tony:

school, I never had that in.

Tony:

I could have had it in, in the criminal world.

Tony:

And certainly I liked criminal law.

Tony:

I, that was my best grade during my one L year, and I definitely enjoyed the

Tony:

subject matter from what my mom was doing, but it wasn't the kind of thing that

Tony:

I, that I saw myself doing long term.

Tony:

So I wanted to do something that was more worth, worth my while.

Tony:

And, I'm thankful for my former torts professor who happened to be a, a big

Tony:

advocate of the relationship between the law and the media that kind of allowed

Tony:

me to be his research, research assistant after my first year of law school.

Tony:

And I, I'm thankful that I had law and adding order as my calling card to

Tony:

really hone in on my understanding of sports law as an industry and understand

Tony:

all the different areas of law.

Tony:

Cause I think all those, all those experiences gave me the accolades,

Tony:

or not necessarily accolades, but at least the skillset.

Tony:

To at least go to the interview at ABC news rights and clearances and

Tony:

say, I may not be the star student, but I'm a very hard worker and this

Tony:

is the product that I can show for.

Tony:

And I'm very thankful that my bosses at that time were very were very open to it

Tony:

because I think the legal industry is very I I, I, it's already bad enough that it

Tony:

acts discriminatory, but it's, it's be, it's even worse that it, they won't give

Tony:

people a fair chance even though they know that they could bring a good work product.

Tony:

And they're so jaded to just look at a GPA or a school ranking.

Tony:

And those are great if you're, if you're nu top 1% in your class and you're,

Tony:

you've got a solid gpa, that's wonderful.

Tony:

And that's something that should be celebrated.

Tony:

But at the same time, we shouldn't disadvantage other hardworking students

Tony:

who should have a fair shot at that.

Tony:

So for me, I think rights of clearances, that internship really just.

Tony:

helped me get something on my resume that was, was going to, pave the

Tony:

way for the rest of my career.

Tony:

I couldn't get any sports law internship throughout my time at my

Tony:

one L year or two L year at law school.

Tony:

So that internship at ABC News was paramount.

Tony:

Not to mention, I think what also helped was during my undergrad year

Tony:

I was a news intern at CBS News, so that that was like the perfect bridge.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

So once I graduated, I was brought back onto ABC news, rights and clearances

Tony:

as a freelancer for seven and a half months just to help get my feet wet

Tony:

and I could find more full-time work.

Tony:

And I think again, that was the prime opportunity for me to just.

Tony:

Advance my skillset, make it better than what it was.

Tony:

So that way it set me up for the next job that I had, which was at another red

Tony:

clearances agency called Green Light.

Tony:

And that was a bit unique because we did copyright clearances for film,

Tony:

television shows and music, but we also represented dead celebrities.

Tony:

And that was my first foray into that world.

Tony:

I studied it in law school, but I never was really exposed to

Tony:

post morum personality rights.

Tony:

Mm-hmm.

Tony:

. But it was unbelievable.

Tony:

It was probably one of the funnest experiences I ever had, minus

Tony:

the micromanaging, absolutely fun experience that I . I, I worked

Tony:

with the Albertine Sign Estate exclusively on other licensing deals.

Tony:

I also worked with Martin Luther King Jr's estate Steve McQueen,

Tony:

the Wright Brothers Thomas Edison.

Tony:

At one point we had retained Marvin Gaye to represent him

Tony:

as well for his personality.

Tony:

. So it was really fascinating to work with brands, get an idea of how

Tony:

they were brainstorming and thinking about these iconic celebrities.

Tony:

And then in the same way working with the estates to understand what

Tony:

they wanted to do with the brand and understanding like what the

Tony:

relationship was between both parties and essentially creating an alignment

Tony:

between the brand and the estate.

Tony:

So I worked on merchandise deals, advertising campaigns, social media

Tony:

campaigns, which, at that point we were managing Einstein social media accounts

Tony:

and I was essentially the face behind those accounts and, to basically to be

Tony:

the, to have the keys to those accounts and manage 25 million followers on.

Tony:

Twitter, Instagram and YouTube was an insane task, but we really tried

Tony:

to figure out ways of leveraging that account to create monetization

Tony:

efforts for the the estate.

Tony:

And it was really remarkable.

Tony:

And this is back in 20 16, 20 17 when we were just getting started on the whole

Tony:

monetization front for social media.

Tony:

But yeah, two and a half years there kind of came and went and then I was

Tony:

offered an opportunity to come back at abc news rights and clearances to

Tony:

be my former boss's right hand man.

Tony:

He was, when I was an intern, he was my boss.

Tony:

He got promoted and so he wanted me to be his right hand man.

Tony:

And so I have been back there and, and that's where I've been ever since.

Tony:

So a very unique path.

Tony:

But something I'm very grateful for again, is that all those experiences that

Tony:

I had throughout my time in law school and even after graduation have really

Tony:

set me up for success at this point.

Tony:

Absolutely.

Ray:

Awesome.

Ray:

The fun part about your story and like the awesome part about your story is kind of

Ray:

how content creation kind of influenced.

Ray:

The direction you're in or like that set up your path from like

Ray:

starting your blog to now, right?

Ray:

Yeah.

Ray:

And I think that's really awesome and especially cuz like, you

Ray:

weren't ordered or you weren't like, tasked with starting a blog.

Ray:

You did that on your own volition, right?

Ray:

Like, you just like, I'm gonna start doing this and see what, where

Tony:

this goes.

Tony:

Right.

Tony:

So the, so the point that I even had made my own merch, like, and I was, I was, the

Tony:

whole purpose of it was like I would have, let's say like a canteen bottle with the

Tony:

lawn and batting order logo and I would have it nestled right there on my desk.

Tony:

And then, like I didn't have to ask a question cause I knew the concept, but

Tony:

I would raise my hand and inevitably all eyes are on me and all eyes are

Tony:

on the lawn and batting order logo.

Tony:

So I was like engaging in this like gorilla marketing at my own law school.

Tony:

And yeah, it, it was, it was it was an uphill battle to try to

Tony:

get promotion going, but it, it was a very fun experience for.

Ray:

Yeah.

Ray:

And, but I mean, I was just gonna mention just like how it, just engaging in the

Ray:

content creation, finding out like, oh, I'm kind of interested in IP law

Ray:

cuz you know, I'm naturally interested in sports and I'm naturally interested

Ray:

in like, different versions of ip.

Ray:

Whether that's, your, your pop culture interests.

Ray:

And then being able to see like, wow, like I could practice something that

Ray:

allows me to still engage in this world.

Ray:

Which I think is huge.

Ray:

And we tell people that all the time when young law students

Ray:

come to us and say like, Hey, do you have any recommendations?

Ray:

Like, we love, like, we have law students all the time come to us and say

Ray:

like, Hey, we love what you're doing.

Ray:

Like how did you get started on this?

Ray:

Like, how do you even know?

Ray:

Like, this was like a possibility for a practice.

Ray:

And we just say like, Hey, what are you interested in?

Ray:

Start making content about it.

Ray:

Find your community.

Ray:

And then also find out.

Ray:

Like the pain points of that community.

Ray:

And then you'll start to realize like how you fit in with your legal skillset.

Ray:

And I think there's just so many opportunities just in

Ray:

content creation in general.

Ray:

You always say like, Hey, if you're a law student, like engage in some type of

Ray:

content creation, whether that's writing online, doing videos online, or just like

Ray:

following people who are doing similar things that you might be interested in.

Ray:

I think that's,

Gabe:

and not even law students, I think we, that's, that's also advice that we

Gabe:

tend to give our, our, our clients, right?

Gabe:

A lot of small businesses, a lot of content creators that

Gabe:

are monetizing themselves.

Gabe:

They're trying to figure out

Tony:

ways to kind of get out there.

Gabe:

And that's, that's the best thing to do is just kind of explore that, right?

Gabe:

Do blogs, do something outside of the norm of just posting pictures

Gabe:

on Instagram or, on TikTok,

Tony:

Expand

Gabe:

that.

Gabe:

So yeah, that, that's, and that's really cool.

Gabe:

And

Tony:

it, what I love is the fact that your story kind of

Gabe:

melts into.

Gabe:

Kind of all the cool things you're doing now,

Tony:

because, I mean, you're, you're a professor now at your law school, but

Tony:

you're also a content creator making content that obviously we're a fan of.

Tony:

And thank you for the support, unwavering support at that . Yeah.

Tony:

So, yeah, tell us a little bit about that and how kind of how that path came about.

Tony:

So, I I, I guess that every story of like how somebody's content creation

Tony:

story kind of started, especially in the last three years for whatever

Tony:

reason, always gonna harken back to like the start of the pandemic.

Tony:

So for me I think that that's a very fair place for me to start.

Tony:

Kind of to set the scene, I had just joined New York Law School as an adjunct

Tony:

professor for entertainment law and ip.

Tony:

In August of 2019.

Tony:

So I had a full semester in person and then when the spring semester started

Tony:

in 2020, we were half in person.

Tony:

And then of course, basically when spring break happened, that's when we faced until

Tony:

a full virtual mode first for teaching.

Tony:

So I taught virtually for the remainder of the spring 2020 semester.

Tony:

I taught virtually for the fall 2020 semester and I started again

Tony:

teaching virtually fall spring 2021.

Tony:

It was that semester that I kind of felt a bit stagnant, if you will.

Tony:

I've been out of the content creation game for a while.

Tony:

I kind of led law and bating order into retirement in 2016 just cuz of time.

Tony:

And, I felt like there were so many other sports law blockers out there that

Tony:

were already oversaturating the market.

Tony:

And I kind of wanted to like, let younger people have a fair shot at it.

Tony:

I used lawn bating where as kind of a calling card to get a good job.

Tony:

And I thought that at that point I got it.

Tony:

So now I could kind of move on and, and, enjoy my life.

Tony:

But I, I found that, with the rise of TikTok and people just sharing

Tony:

information, whether it was educational or informational or fun, whatever you

Tony:

wanna call it, I, I found that the proliferation of that type of content,

Tony:

The prime opportunity for me to just tap into it with IP and the way I teach

Tony:

my classes is pretty much exactly the same that you would see in a video.

Tony:

I'm very fun, lighthearted.

Tony:

I use a lot of videos, a lot of memes, a lot of photos.

Tony:

I don't teach like the standard statutory language, like the

Tony:

copyright Act in the 76 17 USC 1 0 1.

Tony:

I use super sexy AF definitions where I break down in a nice, succinct manner,

Tony:

the understanding of what copyright is, what does it mean to violate

Tony:

rights under copyright law, what is the baseline rule for copyright infringement?

Tony:

So I, I lay it all down in a fun manner for my students to understand.

Tony:

and what I tell my students is my classes are designed to be an experience, not

Tony:

the standard law school class where there's a Socratic method and I'm 95

Tony:

years old with high water pants and my name is not Arthur McStuffins.

Tony:

Like, I've got I've got a different vibe to me and I want

Tony:

students to not feel intimidated when they come to my classroom.

Tony:

So because I bring that energy into the classroom, and I was doing it virtually

Tony:

for essentially a sme a school year and a half, I thought, why not bring

Tony:

that into the social media sphere?

Tony:

I feel like there are other law students that could benefit from it.

Tony:

And then I could see if I tap into a wider market, maybe reach out to

Tony:

attorneys and network with them.

Tony:

And.

Tony:

Little by little, I could build a, a pretty wide network.

Tony:

And so, spring of 2021, basically April of 2021, that's when I had registered the

Tony:

IP professor handle name on Instagram.

Tony:

And I basically went running with it.

Tony:

I had a bunch of ideas from what I had seen in, over the span of months on from

Tony:

other content creators and thought, how could I adapt it in the context of ip?

Tony:

So I did that steadily, little by little I, I started following

Tony:

certain people that were in this space that we all mutually share.

Tony:

They started liking my content.

Tony:

I liked their content.

Tony:

And I think that it just became a really, really good camaraderie.

Tony:

And, here we are basically a year and a half later where, about 3000 followers

Tony:

on Instagram, about 1500 on TikTok just starting my YouTube account, 2023 is here.

Tony:

Looking for ways to expand the brand and, make more fun, engaging content.

Tony:

And it's just been a really good time.

Tony:

I, I've just enjoyed how I've been, been able to create such, fun posts and, and

Tony:

they're designed to be comedic levity.

Tony:

It's that, that's the whole point of them.

Tony:

You can learn IP and still have fun.

Tony:

And so that's exactly what I do with my videos.

Tony:

Nice.

Tony:

What

Ray:

do you think's the toughest part about content creation on your, your end?

Ray:

Cause I know you're pretty consistent.

Ray:

You, I I, I would say like almost a video a day.

Ray:

I think you're pretty, you're pretty consistent on that end.

Ray:

But what, from your point, like point, point of view, I guess

Ray:

what's the hardest part of it?

Ray:

And the second question is, Are there other professors at your school doing

Ray:

this and have you heard feedback from them and has that feedback

Ray:

changed from when you started?

Ray:

Or maybe, I don't know if you even like, mentioned you were gonna start beforehand

Ray:

and how reactions kinda shifted over time.

Tony:

So, to answer the first question I think the biggest struggle that I've

Tony:

encountered is sometimes, I guess you could call it creator's Block, which is

Tony:

a modified version of writer's block.

Tony:

Mm-hmm.

Tony:

. And my version of it is not so much about the content that I want to talk about,

Tony:

but the style of video that I want to use.

Tony:

Cuz yeah, I could do an explainer.

Tony:

But it's like, I try to mix it up.

Tony:

I try to do something funny, maybe a lip sync here and there, and then do a full

Tony:

explainer and then so on and so forth.

Tony:

So it's never all just me lip syncing or all just me ex doing an explainer.

Tony:

But like I'll listen to a sound and, I'll be like, wow, this sound is like amazing.

Tony:

And I'll turn to my wife and I'm like, you know what, what's

Tony:

your idea for this sound?

Tony:

And she's like, I don't know, like, you're on your own for that one . But

Tony:

she's heard enough of my IP spiel that she's like, she could chime in.

Tony:

Like, she's, for almost all intense purposes.

Tony:

My wife is like my research assistant.

Tony:

She's helping me with like the ideas.

Tony:

And sometimes she has we have a good brain trust when it comes to creation that

Tony:

I'll, I'll she'll gimme a suggestion and I'll say, wow, that's a really good idea.

Tony:

And she said, you better give me a credit of the credits or else . So,

Tony:

so I would say, all, all, all things aside though is, is I would say that.

Tony:

Tends to be part of the problem that I, that I encounter every so often.

Tony:

But I, I feel like, I feel like social media trends kind of come and go,

Tony:

but the content's always gonna be there, like the, the substance of it.

Tony:

So I, there are ways that I could adapt to, the subject matter to a new trend,

Tony:

make it relatable, so on and so forth.

Tony:

So, I, I, I.

Tony:

If there's a day off that I take, usually you're right, Ray.

Tony:

I, I usually do a post a day, but if there's a day that I take off, it's either

Tony:

because, I've got creator's block or I'm like super busy with everything else

Tony:

in life, so I try not to kill myself.

Tony:

I just, for the most part, I am able to do a video a day, but if, if I'm just

Tony:

drawing a blank, I, I start fresh the next day and I never batch record either.

Tony:

So that's the other other factor here.

Tony:

I'm always creating.

Tony:

Pretty much the day you watch the video is the same day that I made that video.

Tony:

So, that's kind of how it goes.

Tony:

I, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but this, to answer your

Tony:

second question the only other professor that I know of that's kind of in this

Tony:

realm, not to the same extent, is actually a very close friend of mine, my colleague.

Tony:

New York Law School Dan Lust, who is on Instagram and Twitter at Sports Law Lust.

Tony:

He's our sports law professor.

Tony:

He's an action professor to at the school as well.

Tony:

And he's a full-time attorney at more Hawk, which is a law

Tony:

firm in here in New York.

Tony:

And he's part of their sports law practice and he runs an entire, one

Tony:

of the best podcasts actually on sports law called Conduct Judgemental.

Tony:

And so it's like really fun.

Tony:

He's, how he's just taken that brand and elevated, it has been exceptional.

Tony:

So, and he's a contemporary of mine.

Tony:

He's only like a year older.

Tony:

We're very good friends.

Tony:

We laugh a lot.

Tony:

We, we, we joke a lot.

Tony:

So it's, it's a good comradery that we have.

Tony:

But that, I would say, like, that's the extent of it.

Tony:

In terms of like another professor at the school, making that level of content

Tony:

I did, I did post a video once on our link, on a LinkedIn, on my LinkedIn

Tony:

page with that I did with Dan and the dean of our law school loved it.

Tony:

But then days later he had emailed me and he said, I love what you and Dan are

Tony:

doing but if you can minimize the shelf life of the video, that would be great.

Tony:

So I guess he had, and he had said that there were like some full-time

Tony:

faculty that thought that our video was detrimental to the image of the school,

Tony:

which frankly was not, because just to set the scene, the video that I did with Dan

Tony:

was literally a reenactment of the n scene from Ironman one when Nick Fury emerges

Tony:

from the shadows and says, I want you to be a part of the Adventures Initiative.

Tony:

And that was basically me telling Dan, I want you to be

Tony:

a part of New York Law School.

Tony:

And that was when we were in the process of when he, when he was.

Tony:

He didn't let the whole cat outta the back, but he was in the process of

Tony:

announcing that he was gonna teach sports law New York Law School.

Tony:

How is that video gonna be detrimental to the image of the school?

Tony:

Right.

Tony:

Actually, if anything, young professors like us are good for the school because

Tony:

it gives students an incentive to wanna join a law school like ours,

Tony:

that we're not out of tune with culture or life or things like that.

Tony:

We're.

Tony:

Fairly contemporary to a lot of our students, and thus we feel like we're

Tony:

in a position where we can relate to a lot of their issues and a lot to,

Tony:

and a lot of their concerns and so on.

Tony:

I will say New York Law School has done a very good job as of late

Tony:

though, hiring younger faculty for the IP side of things at the school.

Tony:

We have another new copyright professor who's amazing.

Tony:

We, we have a really good, robust seminar program for IP drafting and licensing.

Tony:

So there's a lot going on at the school that is reviving the ip, the love for

Tony:

IP at New York Law School, and I'm just glad to be a part of that dynamic.

Tony:

It's, it's, it's wonderful to see students feel encouraged to learn

Tony:

about the subject matter, and whether that's by way of my teaching or by

Tony:

way of my Instagram or TikTok videos.

Tony:

I feel like I'm getting the job done.

Tony:

Yeah, and I think we, we bring that up

Gabe:

quite a bit, right?

Gabe:

That it's, we're still in this phase.

Gabe:

Where, the old, old ways of doing things old way, old law, basically.

Gabe:

Right.

Gabe:

It's still so ingrained in our, in our profession

Tony:

that

Gabe:

it's, it's, it's hard, right?

Gabe:

It's hard to kind of get some of the, the old school attorneys to really

Tony:

understand the value of social media and really understand how, cause

Gabe:

if, if you think about it, right?

Gabe:

The, one of the biggest complaints that, most people have is like, oh,

Gabe:

the, the young, the, the Gen Xers would be like, oh, those millennials,

Gabe:

they don't, they don't do that.

Gabe:

And then the millennials are like, oh, those,

Tony:

gen Zers and, and so forth.

Tony:

But

Gabe:

they don't understand that that's actually social

Gabe:

media is this bridge, right?

Gabe:

It's this way to G Gap or Yeah, bridge this gap that, that's out there.

Tony:

Have you seen, I mean, yeah, what's some of the

Tony:

feedback that you've gotten just.

Gabe:

Obviously from your peers, from, obviously from your certain

Gabe:

students, I'm sure it's positive, but

Tony:

have you seen that shift kind of begin to happen?

Tony:

I've definitely seen it and I think what's been very encouraging is

Tony:

that what would've been frowned, this type of content would've been

Tony:

frowned upon maybe 10 years ago.

Tony:

And here we are 10 years later and like, I'm, I'm not an, I'm not running an

Tony:

active law practice cause I'm working in-house, but I see my other peers, like

Tony:

your, you guys, and, and other attorneys out there using social media as the

Tony:

platform for attorney advertising or for selling of services, so on and so forth.

Tony:

What is shift in the dynamic now You're not, turning on the TV and you're hearing

Tony:

Sono and Barnes injury attorneys 808 88 8.

Tony:

8 88.

Tony:

If this is fair use, by the way, I'm just laying it out.

Tony:

, this is for commentary purposes.

Tony:

Yeah, exactly.

Tony:

. So, all that to say, the dynamic has just shifted tremendously where now,

Tony:

you can make information way more accessible to not just a law student or

Tony:

a lawyer, but to the everyday person.

Tony:

It's kind of like you alluded to Gabe.

Tony:

At the end of the day that's, that was the whole reason why I wanted to serve the IP

Tony:

professor because in like just a Marvel movie that you watch, there could be

Tony:

something connected to ip, like, Vibra, I, I did a video while ago about vibranium.

Tony:

Vibranium is a core element found in Wakanda, obviously a fictional

Tony:

element, fictional country.

Tony:

But if Wakanda were real and if vibranium were real, you could

Tony:

make technology that was based on vibranium and register the technology.

Tony:

As a utility patent.

Tony:

However, vibranium itself is not patentable because like iron, like

Tony:

lithium, like carbon dioxide, like all these other, elements in the periodic

Tony:

table, those elements or other naturally occurring elements are not capable

Tony:

of getting utility patent protection.

Tony:

So even in something nerdy like a Marvel movie, I try to find

Tony:

something fun out of it to teach and at least create a connection.

Tony:

I did a video yesterday at, about the whole Justin Bieber h

Tony:

and m dispute that's going down.

Tony:

And like, again, people shop, people like Justin Bieber, so they may find

Tony:

relatability in a video like that.

Tony:

You know where I'm talking about that dispute.

Tony:

So, my students seem to enjoy it a lot.

Tony:

They always use my videos in their small group presentations at the end

Tony:

of the semester, which I always get a kick out of . And I, and they think

Tony:

I'm gonna give extra credit, but I just laugh because I, I, I, I like that they.

Tony:

Enjoy putting my face in their videos when, I never asked for it.

Tony:

I never asked them for a follow or anything.

Tony:

It's at their own choosing to decide if they ever wanna follow me.

Tony:

But it's just very encouraging to see that they enjoy it.

Tony:

And then what's even more, more comforting to know is that people like yourself,

Tony:

like my, my peers in this community don't see me as competition, but you enjoy

Tony:

my content legitimately and support me.

Tony:

Like I did a video on Legal Zoom and I got, I got a comment from this guy that

Tony:

worked at Legal Zoom and he basically was trying to debunk my video, but man,

Tony:

everybody else just came to my rescue.

Tony:

It was like, it was like that scene in Adventures End game.

Tony:

When has the broken shield, he just straps it.

Tony:

The Chiari are there, Thanos is there.

Tony:

Everybody's like just one man against everybody else.

Tony:

And then the portal's open and then like Black Panther comes out and

Tony:

then Falcon comes out and Ironman and everybody else is emerging.

Tony:

So it's like, to me it, that was like a very surreal moment to know that I have

Tony:

the support even of the IP community.

Tony:

And I think that's, that's a also a wonderful thing too, that not only

Tony:

is this community such a melting pot, but we, I think we all have such a

Tony:

shared interest to protect creators rights, to want to share our knowledge

Tony:

about this about this field of law.

Tony:

Because at the end of the day, it's something that we encounter.

Tony:

And what I always tell my students is IP is everywhere, whether

Tony:

you're aware of it or not.

Tony:

And it is so true in the music you com, you listen to, in the movies

Tony:

you watch, and even the technology you use on it in every single, every

Tony:

single day you're, you're bound to see IP in some form or fashion.

Tony:

And so if I can do that through my videos and if people receive it well

Tony:

then I feel like I've done my job.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

Mm-hmm.

Tony:

. Yeah.

Tony:

No, absolutely.

Tony:

I mean, I, I think it, and it's so funny that you mentioned, I.

Tony:

, Gabe: it just clicked on me.

Tony:

But the relationship, because obviously the law school has, has their

Tony:

thoughts about social media, obviously

Tony:

your family, right?

Tony:

Like your, your wife,

Gabe:

Is, is encouraging.

Gabe:

My wife does the same thing.

Gabe:

She'll send me like TikTok, it's like, Hey, check this one out.

Gabe:

And then I'm confused by it.

Gabe:

And she's like, for your TikTok, I'm like, . Gotcha.

Gabe:

And a lot of the viral ones are like, because of her, and she's

Tony:

like, you're welcome, . That's right.

Tony:

Exactly.

Tony:

Exactly.

Tony:

. Gabe: And so

Tony:

with that being said, what about your daytime job?

Tony:

What, what do they

Gabe:

are, are they supportive about your,

Tony:

your kind of personality on social media?

Tony:

Because I, I mean, I think your, your brand on social media has a potential,

Tony:

again, to be, or it already is, but has

Gabe:

a potential to really be a big

Tony:

personality to the point where, you know,

Gabe:

you.

Tony:

You, I mean, you're not really competing with a ABC or, or anything.

Tony:

But again does your boss, if anything, I'm giving them so much

Tony:

free publicity that they should just send me out to all the red carpet

Tony:

screenings of like, all these movie?

Tony:

That's what I'm, that's what I mean.

Tony:

Like, I would be like, I, I would be like a kid on Christmas Day, like,

Tony:

you, like Ralphie opening up the Red Rider, BB gun, like just, sending off.

Tony:

They, they are very supportive of it actually to the point that I

Tony:

think that, these same people saw my progression with law and batting order.

Tony:

And so I think that they're very encouraged to see that I

Tony:

found a new way of doing it.

Tony:

And, it's, it's been a very fun ride.

Tony:

Like, it's just, I'm, I'm obviously not doing anything to

Tony:

share com, compromising material.

Tony:

About my day-to-day job.

Tony:

Of course, I work on projects, but I advertise the, my participation

Tony:

in a project usually after.

Tony:

So for example, I've worked on a lot of ABC News specials that

Tony:

hopefully listeners have seen.

Tony:

But I've worked on our special or 2020 special on the 50th

Tony:

anniversary Walt Disney World.

Tony:

I worked on the West Side Story special that we did last year.

Tony:

Earlier this year, we did a special on the new Elvis movie.

Tony:

I worked on that one.

Tony:

I just finished working on our promo, special branded for 2020

Tony:

for the second Avatar movie.

Tony:

And, I had a hand in all the licensing for that whether it was

Tony:

photos and videos with our studios.

Tony:

I've worked on our superstar series, which is usually on a

Tony:

deceased celebrity, although it's now shifted to living people.

Tony:

But I've worked on those projects in, in a very, intense manner.

Tony:

You're never gonna see me in a video, say, okay, everybody like, like a block style.

Tony:

Okay, everybody, so here I am in my desk and I'm working on this

Tony:

super duper license agreement where it's a quick leave agreement.

Tony:

Like, no, no, no, no, I'm not, that's not, I'm not obviously not gonna

Tony:

share that for a number of reasons.

Tony:

It would probably be a breach of contract and then thus lead me to, unemployment.

Tony:

But I don't wanna do that.

Tony:

But I think the subject matter that I teach about is broad enough to

Tony:

not conflict with the work, because I could talk about copyright,

Tony:

not necessarily in the lens of a rights and clearances, personnel.

Tony:

Like what?

Tony:

Like what I am?

Tony:

Mm-hmm.

Tony:

. I could talk about copyright through the lens.

Tony:

, a movie reference or through the lens of an actual headline

Tony:

that involved a celebrity.

Tony:

Like I was actually talking to a friend of mine who, has been

Tony:

interesting to collaborate with me, and he's a big fan of, of Spider-Man.

Tony:

He, he loves all things Marvel and Comic, but he particularly loves Spider-Man.

Tony:

And I said to him, I had a light bulb moment.

Tony:

What if we did a video where we talked about Eddie Brock committing

Tony:

copyright infringement in Spiderman three and we mimic the Bully

Tony:

McGuire dance and everything.

Tony:

Like to me, that's the kind of stuff I would talk about and not something

Tony:

that would compromise my job.

Tony:

So I found that happy medium in such a way that everybody at ABC

Tony:

News seems to be thrilled with it.

Tony:

And, it's, my account is not viral yet.

Tony:

Obviously when it get, if it were to get to that point,

Tony:

we'll figure things out Sure.

Tony:

If it were, if it's, if there is a potential conflict, but I don't think

Tony:

it would, and I would never do anything to, to obviously create some type of

Tony:

issue, long-term with, with ABC News, with myself or anybody else involved.

Tony:

Yeah, I mean, I,

Ray:

it's just crazy.

Ray:

Like, it just goes back to the whole idea of like content creation,

Ray:

building your own leverage, right?

Ray:

Like going back to your blog and how that was basically leveraged to get a good job

Ray:

and like, who knows what the next step is for you and your, your journey, right?

Ray:

I saw you shoot your shot with the US PTO about having a,

Ray:

creating content with them.

Ray:

So like, and

Tony:

like, obviously I'm trying to get Mark treatment out of there.

Tony:

Please tell me he does not, he does not . He does not look, does

Tony:

he not look like Nick Cage and Sheldon Cooper had a child together?

Tony:

Oh, absolutely.

Tony:

They cooper head with like, he just might as well just say

Tony:

Bazinga and we'll call it a day.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

I

Ray:

mean, you're already basically doing that and once, once again just a

Ray:

little more engaging and I think one,

Tony:

one day sometimes, sometimes I do throw shade at the US pt so

Tony:

, Gabe: we kinda have to every, you

Tony:

know, it's all it's, it's all, it's all in love.

Tony:

You gotta get, get,

Gabe:

get working, get to work.

Gabe:

Yeah.

Gabe:

I mean,

Ray:

cause I, I would love to just share their video to our clients, but

Ray:

you know, sometimes it doesn't meet the mark so we have to do it ourselves.

Ray:

Right.

Ray:

But yeah, I mean it just goes back to the whole idea of like

Ray:

building your own leverage.

Ray:

And I think that's what's so exciting about the creator economy and why

Ray:

we work with the clients we do.

Ray:

Because we're seeing people who, who are starting their content

Ray:

journeys and, starting to monetize.

Ray:

Whether that's through brand deals, through their own products, through

Ray:

their own services, and seeing them build an audience whether slowly

Ray:

or because of a viral moment.

Ray:

And then just like totally changing their life, totally changing their

Ray:

traject trajectory in their career.

Ray:

And even for us, right, like we were, know, Gabe was a criminal lawyer and I

Ray:

was a policy advisor and, we, we started our own law firm on content creation

Ray:

and, helping small business owners, even though we never ran a firm before, we

Ray:

never even worked in a traditional firm before , and we had no idea about how

Ray:

marketing our firm, but like we were able to do that through, building com

Ray:

community online through content creation.

Ray:

So I think it's just like building your own leverage and then,

Ray:

seeing where it goes from there.

Ray:

And I think you're a perfect example of that.

Ray:

But yeah.

Ray:

Moving on to our, like, the next question I have for you is just, we're

Ray:

talking about content creators and obviously our audience is mostly content

Ray:

creators when it comes to intellectual property and content creation.

Ray:

What are maybe three pieces of advice that you might have for

Ray:

the young content creators?

Ray:

Say they have 10 K to 20 K followers and they are, in brand deals and they

Ray:

are, creating content that getting a lot of eyes . What are your three kind of

Tony:

tips for them or

Ray:

three things you wanna put on their radar from an IP perspective when

Ray:

creating contracts, or not creating contracts, but creating content and also

Ray:

signing onto brand contracts and things

Tony:

like that.

Tony:

So I think the first one is kind of a given, which is to make sure

Tony:

that in every avenue possible you're protecting your brand.

Tony:

So obviously if you are uh, content creator and you.

Tony:

Have built a thriving following as a result of the type of videos you

Tony:

make, you have to seriously consider.

Tony:

Have you taken efforts to register the trademark for your brand?

Tony:

Are you actively in the process of doing that?

Tony:

If you haven't, I would jump on it, only because the sooner you

Tony:

can get protection, the better.

Tony:

So I think that that's an imperative part of the process.

Tony:

In the same vein I think it's also imperative to seriously consider,

Tony:

especially if you have a larger following and you're more susceptible to, let's say,

Tony:

pirating you should be in a prime position to sincerely consider registering the cop

Tony:

rights even for the videos that you make.

Tony:

And the only reason is because think of a situation like what's happening

Tony:

with Bethany Frankel and TikTok.

Tony:

Bethany Frankel has like all these videos where she tries on clothes,

Tony:

and I think that there was some manufacturer that decided to just rip

Tony:

off her video and use it as advertising.

Tony:

And so the question at that point becomes, could there, what protections did Bethany

Tony:

Frankl, do in that position, in that, in that situation to protect her Ike?

Tony:

And if it can happen to Bethany Frank, if it can happen to Bethany

Tony:

Frankl, it can happen to anybody else.

Tony:

So I think that that's a very, very important way to protect your brand.

Tony:

Obviously, you can protect it in other ways.

Tony:

You can, if, if you have, let's say work for hire situations where let's say you're

Tony:

asking somebody to create a logo for you, or you're, you have a videographer that

Tony:

does the video work for you, understanding how that relationship goes, or you, the

Tony:

copper owner, is it jointly owned with the videographer, so on and so forth.

Tony:

So I would say that that would be k kind of like the, the most important

Tony:

part, the, the most important step for, or at least the most important thing

Tony:

for content creators to take seriously.

Tony:

The second thing would be to when you're reading contracts with your with your

Tony:

brands that you're working with, be mindful of what you're agreeing to.

Tony:

I know that you guys have talked about it, especially that exceptional video about

Tony:

unilateral like, this is a situation where a lot of brands can take advantage of

Tony:

the everyday person cuz they're not well learned on legalese or things like that.

Tony:

So, being mindful of when you make videos for a brand or you're making

Tony:

content, generally speaking for a brand who owns the copyright to those photos,

Tony:

who owns the copyright to those videos, what are you actually consenting to?

Tony:

What's the indemnification clause looking like?

Tony:

All of those are gonna be paramount.

Tony:

Understanding, what, whether or not you're really signing your

Tony:

soul away to the devil or not.

Tony:

I, I feel like, I hate to make it sound so grim, but I feel that.

Tony:

Too many creators have been taken advantage of because

Tony:

of this one little issue.

Tony:

And I think that that segues that into the third one, which is

Tony:

tangential to number two, which is retaining a lawyer for those needs.

Tony:

I think that if you're not in a position to read a contract, well,

Tony:

soliciting an attorney and asking for their help, it's not a bad thing to do.

Tony:

It's worth the investment.

Tony:

It's something you should ly consider because you know they're gonna be

Tony:

able to provide expertise on a lot of things, especially on the legalese,

Tony:

what are you exactly agreeing to?

Tony:

They could provide red lines, they could, iron it out.

Tony:

So I think that that's, imperative in this process.

Tony:

And they can also, just for people to understand, lawyers went, we

Tony:

went to law school to be advocates.

Tony:

So in my case, I work in-house, I'm an advocate for a ABC news producers.

Tony:

I'm working on their behalf to get things done.

Tony:

So in the same way with people like Gabe and Ray, they're acting as advocates on

Tony:

behalf of the everyday content creator.

Tony:

Trademark attorney X is advocating as an advocate for his or her clients.

Tony:

Pat, attorney y, doing the same thing as well, so on and so forth.

Tony:

So people should understand that lawyers are not just there to help

Tony:

read the language, but also advocate for your rights and help you get

Tony:

what you need and what you want.

Tony:

So essentially when Cardi B said, get lawyers, get lawyers for

Tony:

everything, she was not kidding.

Tony:

So, sincerely considerate.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

No, I mean, I

Ray:

asked for three things, but I feel like we got like a

Ray:

plethora of things right there.

Ray:

I love it.

Ray:

And we have people who, sometimes who book a consultation with us.

Ray:

Maybe they, they haven't seen our videos before, they don't

Ray:

really know what we're offering.

Ray:

Or maybe we meet someone in person and they're like, oh,

Ray:

like what can you do for me?

Ray:

Like, why would I hire you?

Ray:

And it's like, well, there's so much.

Ray:

Like I can't even think about, usually it's like, we can help you

Ray:

build your brand, we can help you protect your brand, we can help

Ray:

you, like legitimize your business.

Ray:

Like, those are very broad things, but there's so many,

Ray:

like, I can't even, there's like.

Ray:

So many things we do on a day-to-day basis, basis, whether that's just

Ray:

like reviewing a contract for a certain, maybe it's a hire you're

Ray:

bringing on, or maybe it's a brand deal, or maybe it's literally just the

Ray:

collaboration or affiliate agreement.

Ray:

There's so many times that people are signing away rights.

Ray:

They have, or their own legal protections away in so many forms, or

Ray:

like adding liabilities to themselves without even knowing about it.

Ray:

And it's hard to even be like, Hey, this is exactly what we can help you with.

Ray:

But on a day to day basis, we're helping our.

Ray:

on a, a variety, a range of things.

Ray:

Well, and, and

Tony:

I think it goes back to, some of these

Gabe:

bigger, most big brands, right?

Gabe:

They're gonna have, or big companies have in-house counsel where they

Gabe:

could literally just a quick email to their attorneys or just

Gabe:

walk over the attorneys and be

Tony:

able to ask questions and get those answers

Gabe:

immediately.

Gabe:

And I think that's one of the things, like,

Tony:

I think a lot of people don't realize how much legal, just like how

Tony:

you were saying how much IP is in our world and how much we're interacting with

Tony:

it, that we've kind of become numb to it

Gabe:

and don't realize how much legal assistance people actually need.

Gabe:

So, absolutely.

Ray:

Increasingly matter too.

Ray:

And that brings me to my, my, another question is, what are you looking forward

Ray:

to in like, the new developments of ip?

Ray:

Right?

Ray:

Like obviously.

Ray:

There's a number of things happening in the real world, right?

Ray:

Ai, virtual reality.

Ray:

I'm, I'm interested in knowing like what you are excited about in learning

Ray:

about, there's a lot of uncertainty in, what's the new technologies

Ray:

are where being introduced to.

Ray:

So I would love to know like what, what your take on that

Tony:

is.

Tony:

So I would say, so first it's not related to the real world, but it's

Tony:

actually two cases that I'm very much paying attention to, ironically, both

Tony:

before the Supreme Court, we've got the fair use case involving Andy Warhol and

Tony:

Prince that I think could completely either shatter or help our understanding

Tony:

of fair use in the copper world.

Tony:

It's something that I'm very anxious to see how this court is gonna rule

Tony:

especially because I know that they've been Obviously very contentious about

Tony:

talking about other issues, but you know, certainly I'm, I'm curious to

Tony:

see what their assessment is gonna be about intellectual property matters.

Tony:

So obviously the copyright case is gonna be of most utmost importance

Tony:

to me, but I'm especially interested in this new Jack Daniels bad spaniels

Tony:

trademark infringement lawsuit.

Tony:

For anybody that doesn't know, there's this dog chew toy by this

Tony:

company called v i p products, that if you look at their roster of goods,

Tony:

they literally make a business.

Tony:

They have a business that is off of parodying everyday drinks.

Tony:

They shape, they're shaped like cans, bottles of alcohol drinks, so soft drinks,

Tony:

any type of beverage you can imagine.

Tony:

One of those products that they have is a Jack Daniels bottle or

Tony:

a bottle that's shaped like Jack Daniels, that's called Bad Spaniels.

Tony:

Has the exact same square bottle body design with like that curvy top.

Tony:

It turns out that that bottle design is registered as tray dress in

Tony:

the US padding trim mark office.

Tony:

Again, for anybody that doesn't know, trade, dress is a, it's under the realm

Tony:

of trademark law and uses designed decor, uniforms, packaging, anything of that

Tony:

sort that is used to further the source identification of goods and services.

Tony:

So think of Jack Daniels.

Tony:

The word Jack Daniels is registered as a trademark.

Tony:

What Jack Daniels did was register the bottle so that they could tell the

Tony:

whole world, Hey, if we remove Jack Daniels off the labeling of the bottle,

Tony:

and you just saw the design of the bottle, you could see for yourself.

Tony:

That's a Jack Daniels.

Tony:

That's not a Hennessy, that's not a Bacardi.

Tony:

That's not any other drink except a Jack Daniels.

Tony:

Sneaker brands are actually big on this as well.

Tony:

That's how, we kind of have the air Force one air, the Jordan's

Tony:

Air Force one s as registered trade dress, and I think a bunch of other

Tony:

Nike sneakers are there as well.

Tony:

So that lawsuit was has been escalated to the Supreme Court.

Tony:

So I'm very curious to see how that case would rule, only because this

Tony:

is the second time in recent history where there's been a pet product

Tony:

being brought in for trademark infringement and potential trademark,

Tony:

fair use defense is at play here.

Tony:

So, that, that was the Louis Vuitton Chewy Vuitton dispute that

Tony:

happened about a few years ago.

Tony:

Very fascinating case as well.

Tony:

So, so those are the two cases that I'm looking forward to, to see what

Tony:

this term, the Supreme Court rules.

Tony:

But in terms of the real world, I'm very fascinated as kind of you alluded

Tony:

to Ray, about the whole AI scene.

Tony:

Not just about the privacy policy implications of it, but the copyright

Tony:

ownership angle, the issues with copyright infringement and fair use.

Tony:

, but of utmost importance to me is the personality right side of things.

Tony:

The only reason why I bring that up is because there's this company out there

Tony:

called podcast AI where they basically take the voices, I guess from the

Tony:

internet or from other data plugins, wherever, and they're able to take the

Tony:

voices of any person that you could ask for, and they can make a whole

Tony:

podcast interview between two people.

Tony:

So the first interview featured Joe Rogan and Steve Jobs, a very dead Steve

Tony:

Jobs, somehow are able to have a full fledged conversation between the two.

Tony:

The second one, I forgot who one of them was, but it was Richard.

Tony:

It also featured Richard Feynman, the physicist, that also very dead.

Tony:

So the issue becomes, with technology like that, what's not to say that a.

Tony:

could say, all right, we can't get Harry Styles because he rejected our offer.

Tony:

Let's go ahead and just get all of his voice samples.

Tony:

We'll go to this AI software and we'll make a, a voice rendition of Harry

Tony:

Styles saying, Marl bro, cigarettes are the best cigarettes out there.

Tony:

And let's say Harry Styles doesn't smoke.

Tony:

I don't know if he does, but if he doesn't smoke, he's up in arms about

Tony:

this, he could sue for personality, right?

Tony:

Infringement.

Tony:

Now, at that point, you've got a huge issue because this is BET

Tony:

Midler versus four two point.

Tony:

Sorry, another quick lesson.

Tony:

Midler versus Ford is another great personality, right case.

Tony:

That case involved the use of BET Midler's voice in an ad campaign in

Tony:

the, I think late eighties, early nineties for their, for a yuppy campaign

Tony:

that Lincoln Mercury was hosting.

Tony:

And originally, Lincoln Mercury had hired an ad agency to approach BET

Tony:

Midler asking if she could, if she would grant permission to her song.

Tony:

Do you wanna dance for the commercial?

Tony:

Her agent and she denied that request.

Tony:

So what did the ad agency do?

Tony:

They went to her backup singer.

Tony:

Hey, you sound like Ed Midler.

Tony:

Could you sing like her?

Tony:

Can you sing?

Tony:

Do you wanna dance?

Tony:

Absolutely.

Tony:

So all of a sudden the commercial airs and you hear, do you wanna dance?

Tony:

That's my worst bad Midler voice.

Tony:

But , so do sing in that got that song.

Tony:

It was all from the backup singer, Bette Midler hears that she's pissed off.

Tony:

So now she's Susan California for personality, right infringement.

Tony:

And the judge rules in that case that her voice is just as much of an

Tony:

identifier of her personality as her name, her image, and her likeness.

Tony:

So, I think that if brands play with fire, they're gonna get caught

Tony:

in a firestorm in something like this and it could breed a massive

Tony:

personality, red infringement lawsuit.

Tony:

Yeah, so I would say that the AI scene is something that we should sincerely

Tony:

pay attention to because this could have, this could have long-term ramifications.

Tony:

And right now, just like NFTs, were at the start of this year, we're

Tony:

still not completely outta the woods.

Tony:

But at the start of this year, when we were entering the N F T space,

Tony:

it was the Wild, wild West ai.

Tony:

Forget it.

Tony:

This is like zombie apocalypse level.

Tony:

Wild, wild west.

Tony:

This is just gonna be a mad house dumpster fire if it's not regulated,

Tony:

or at least curtailed or, or there isn't like some type of guidance

Tony:

about IP matters in some fashion.

Tony:

Yeah, man.

Gabe:

And you know what's funny, I, when you're mentioning the

Gabe:

Bette Miller, you know what example came to mind, which is probably

Tony:

geekier, A

Gabe:

geekier example, is Crispin Glover.

Gabe:

Remember from

Tony:

Back to the Future.

Tony:

Yes.

Tony:

That one,

Gabe:

back to the future too.

Gabe:

He didn't wanna sign on and they just literally took a, a mass, like a, a mold

Gabe:

of his face and put it on some other

Tony:

actor that he sued and won.

Tony:

But anyways,

Gabe:

yeah, absolutely.

Gabe:

With the whole like ai even deep fake stuff, right?

Gabe:

Like it's, it is just crazy how good it looks too.

Gabe:

Obviously as a Star Wars

Tony:

fan, you

Gabe:

watch the, the movies get released and all of a sudden you see some guy

Gabe:

from, his, his garage or studio, whatever, redoing some of these scenes with, their

Gabe:

deep fake with some, AI technology.

Gabe:

And it's way better than.

Gabe:

, you know what Disney did?

Gabe:

It's,

Tony:

it's crazy.

Gabe:

And again, I think it goes back to

Tony:

what we had mentioned in a previous podcast, is that

Gabe:

there's a lot of power going back, right.

Gabe:

Shifting back to the creator from these corporations, from

Gabe:

these, big, just industries.

Gabe:

And there's a big shift to the little people whether it's good

Gabe:

or not, we'll, I guess we'll see.

Tony:

Right?

Gabe:

But it's, it's definitely there and it's

Tony:

happening.

Tony:

So yeah, for real.

Tony:

I mean, it's, it's it, it's an exciting time for consumers and I think having

Tony:

this type of technology we can't deny was something that was inevitable.

Tony:

But I think because of how fast it came, it's caught all of us off guard.

Tony:

And I think that it, it's now a game of kind of like catch, we're almost

Tony:

like, Living up that meme where Mr.

Tony:

Krabs is like in that blur and he's like freaking the F out.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

So it's like that, that's like all of us right now because this is vast technology.

Tony:

Like even chat, g p t, amazing technology.

Tony:

Like the fact that I could type in and draft me a copyright,

Tony:

infr and ladder is fascinating.

Tony:

But now that brings up broader issues.

Tony:

Is it ethical that I'm getting a letter like that, that I can, that I can use

Tony:

for, fighting a copper infringement claim?

Tony:

Does that, what does that mean in terms of actual, that letter

Tony:

actually infringing on copyright?

Tony:

Because is it infringing on a template that already exists or is it taking

Tony:

an aggregate of a bunch of different letters and making that letter possible?

Tony:

So it's like a lot of questions that need to be sincerely considered and

Tony:

answered, but the, the fact that we're here at this point in time is already.

Tony:

It's just now we just have to figure out from, from an intellectual property

Tony:

perspective, maybe even from, from just a broader legal perspective, how, how do,

Tony:

how do we reconcile these advancements technology with, regulation, with actually

Tony:

creating some type of, hate to say like this, but some type of law and order

Tony:

where we're not bending the bounds of copyright law or trademark law, or other

Tony:

aspects of intellectual property violating creator's rights and, and what have you.

Tony:

So it's, it's a, it's something to consider.

Tony:

And, I think, I think we're, we're gonna see a lawsuit, I think in 2023

Tony:

about this matter arc, my words.

Tony:

Yeah,

Ray:

absolutely.

Ray:

Yeah.

Ray:

I mean, it's just, like you said, it just came so fast, right?

Ray:

We thought like it would be like a slow rollout of like, oh yeah,

Ray:

the, the technology's out now.

Ray:

But it's kind of, it's like not that impressive, but like, it was like

Ray:

right from the get like the jump, like

Tony:

listen, the avatar

Ray:

creators and then like all like the chat gt, like actually

Ray:

being like, mindblowingly good.

Tony:

Listen, like I'm a, I'm a huge back to the Future fan.

Tony:

And so when 2015 came, I like, I was marveled at like, like how

Tony:

accurate it was that the Cubs even made it to the playoffs.

Tony:

Although I was so thankful as a Mets fan that we completely threw the

Tony:

Cubs out of the World Series world.

Tony:

So although we ended up losing, so don't, don't get me started, but it just was,

Tony:

it's like fascinating to see like all that technology from back to the future.

Tony:

And then come 2015, we don't.

Tony:

Dolores are out of style.

Tony:

There's no flying cars, there is no hoverboards.

Tony:

I'm like, okay.

Tony:

Obviously it felt hyperbolic and then all of a sudden we've got

Tony:

AI technology at our fingertips.

Tony:

Wow.

Tony:

This is, this is the future.

Tony:

I mean, before you know it, we're gonna see, I think, other advancements of

Tony:

AI technology where it could probably integrate with holograms, which

Tony:

have become also kind of like a new technology that's kind of been a bit

Tony:

dormant, but it, I think it can make a, a really good comeback with this AI

Tony:

technology where you could basically give a Texas speech and make it com,

Tony:

make it say complete sentences that actually sound natural and don't sound

Tony:

like this, and have a different pitch.

Tony:

Every time I say a different.

Tony:

So, that's the that, that's, it's not like c through PR on that one, but yeah.

Tony:

You know what I mean?

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

Great.

Tony:

No,

Gabe:

yeah.

Gabe:

And, and again, the fact of the matter is that

Tony:

it's, it's not even just at a level of like, these

Gabe:

scientists and these corporations that pumped a bunch

Gabe:

of money into the ai, it's in the hands of the consumer now, which

Tony:

again, on TikTok, right?

Tony:

My

Gabe:

whole, whole feed is just people doing the AI filters, converting

Gabe:

themselves into whatever, art or whatever.

Gabe:

And then on my Instagram, I tend to see there's a bunch of, it's literally

Gabe:

flooded with the AI crossed out, right?

Gabe:

From all the artists.

Gabe:

They're like, don't support ai.

Gabe:

It's, it's horrible.

Gabe:

It's gonna kill the, the artistic.

Gabe:

Industry or whatever, but it's, it's crazy times we're living in and, and

Gabe:

I think, again, I think, people like

Tony:

yourself other content creators that are focusing on IP are gonna

Gabe:

be crucial in these next, this next decade, as, as this new field of law

Gabe:

really, I think is gonna emerge just from, from NFTs, from ai, from, from all that.

Gabe:

So I think we're, we're kind of, we feel privileged and lucky to be kind of on that

Gabe:

forefront of, of these potential issues.

Gabe:

So, again, we appreciate everything you do to, to educate the, the masses on, on this

Gabe:

because they're, they're gonna need it.

Gabe:

It's coming.

Tony:

Mm-hmm.

Tony:

, definitely, it's, it's, it's, it's really fun to just, break down all this

Tony:

legalese in, in a fun fashion and Yeah.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

It's, it's, it's something that I enjoy doing so much.

Tony:

So.

Tony:

To the extent that I can, keep sharing this information, the better.

Tony:

Of course.

Tony:

And it's not going anywhere, anywhere, anytime soon.

Tony:

So , the content's gonna keep coming.

Tony:

Yeah.

Ray:

Yeah.

Ray:

And I, I mean, I know we were wrapping up on time here, but one last question

Ray:

I wanted to just get from you.

Ray:

Professor T was just, we talked about, tips for creators.

Ray:

We talked about, just expanding the world of IP through new tech technology.

Ray:

What are some misconceptions or some popular misconceptions about

Ray:

IP that you see in your world?

Ray:

Right.

Ray:

For example, when people think certain things are protected, but they're

Ray:

actually not we have that issue a lot with clients who are in dispute

Ray:

sometimes, and they're saying, oh, the other person says like, I can't, shoot

Ray:

my photography this way anymore because I developed this type of style with them.

Ray:

But I'm the content creator and I'm the one shooting the

Ray:

photography, and that's my style.

Ray:

Does, is that a trademark of the brand I shot for or is it just my style?

Ray:

Right?

Ray:

So there's a lot of, we, we see a lot of that happening in the creator space.

Ray:

Lemme just know, like there's any misconceptions you see,

Ray:

that brands make sometimes when it comes to misinterpreting,

Ray:

maybe trademarks and copyrights.

Tony:

So I, I would say these are correctable mistakes, but certainly

Tony:

the first one is to think that ideas are protected when they

Tony:

never are in any aspect of ip.

Tony:

In copyright law, there's the idea expression dichotomy.

Tony:

If you're a lawyer and you sat through a copyright class, you probably remember

Tony:

it, but the whole essence is, I could say I had the idea for Harry Potter, but that

Tony:

is not, that's not gonna get me anywhere because the, by proxy Ray could say that

Tony:

he had the idea for Harry Potter, and Gabe could say this exact same thing, but.

Tony:

I, there's nothing tangible about an idea that makes it protectable.

Tony:

It's the moment you take that idea and you materialize it in

Tony:

some fashion, that now all of a sudden we're talking about sincere.

Tony:

We have to sincerely consider the ip protections there.

Tony:

So if I wrote a book that, that idea that, let's say I had an idea for writing

Tony:

a book about, a, a turtle that you know, could fly, turtle Boy, whatever.

Tony:

Mm-hmm.

Tony:

Turtle Boy, if I had to, oh, watch, somebody's gonna take Turtle Boy,

Tony:

and that's gonna . So Turtle Boy becomes it's an idea concept that

Tony:

I have in my head, and then all of a sudden I put pens and paper.

Tony:

Now all of a sudden, that ex, that idea has become expressed and fixed in a

Tony:

tangible medium of expression at that.

Tony:

So now I have something protected under copper.

Tony:

So I think for people, it's more for people to understand that ideas

Tony:

are never protected, not just in copyright, but even in trademarks,

Tony:

in patents, in trade, secrets, trade, dress, any aspect of it, of ip.

Tony:

It's just you need to materialize that IP in order to get that protection.

Tony:

It, it's, it's the only way that you could guarantee protection.

Tony:

I would say the second misconception that I commonly see is that if you're

Tony:

the subject of the photo, that you're, you have the right to that photo.

Tony:

And I think that this is very common in the space that I deal with at ABC News.

Tony:

When we're working with, let's say Joe Schmo or Sally Smith, and they give

Tony:

us wedding photos or your book photos, at the end of the day, they may have

Tony:

those photos in their family shoebox with all the photos, but there was

Tony:

a photographer behind the scenes and they have rights that they need to.

Tony:

So just because you're the subject of the photo doesn't

Tony:

mean you're the copyright owner.

Tony:

You see this also even with the celebrities who post their,

Tony:

paparazzi photos on social media.

Tony:

And yes, admittedly I'm gonna call 'em out, but you have the people like

Tony:

Richard Lebowitz, who are copyright trolls out there, can't stand them.

Tony:

But either way, they, they're out there to basically, enforce rights.

Tony:

And so most times, more, more times than not, those claims are legitimate.

Tony:

And so when a celebrity is g gone after for posting a paparazzi photo yeah.

Tony:

They're committing, they are for all intent purposes,

Tony:

committing papa infringement.

Tony:

I do.

Tony:

I, I, I think that if you share it in a story, I feel like there's, personally,

Tony:

I think that there's a bit of a flexibility because you're not really.

Tony:

fixating it for such a long period of time.

Tony:

There isn't that fixation that would exist with, let's say, a static post.

Tony:

But either way, we've seen it in the real world with a bunch of celebrities

Tony:

in recent history, so mm-hmm.

Tony:

I think just a, a more of a PSA to people before you post that photo that

Tony:

was professionally shot by a wedding photographer or another professional

Tony:

photographer, just asking for permission if it's okay to post on social media.

Tony:

We did that with my wife and I did that with our wedding photographer.

Tony:

It was all good.

Tony:

That's how we were able to share our memories with a

Tony:

bunch of friends and family.

Tony:

So that's that.

Tony:

And then the third thing is not so much specific to any area of law, but I think

Tony:

ip, which is that people feel that they can't bring something creative to the

Tony:

table that is worthy of protection.

Tony:

And I'm just gonna lay it out there in Cockroach law alone.

Tony:

The there, the def full definition of copyright law is that it needs to

Tony:

be an original work of authorship, fixing a tangible medium of expression.

Tony:

And one of those key buzzwords is original originality in our court

Tony:

system has an extremely low threshold.

Tony:

It ha just has to have some degree of creativity.

Tony:

Doesn't have to be something novel or innate magnanimous.

Tony:

It could just be some degree of creativity for it to be original.

Tony:

So a stick figure is pretty standard.

Tony:

Nothing really novel about that.

Tony:

But if I were to draw a mustache and maybe a hat on it, now all of

Tony:

a sudden I've given, given it some level of creativity that in the

Tony:

eyes of the law could be creative.

Tony:

And I know that there are lot of creators out there that are, I think

Tony:

a bit apprehensive of making the jump to making some type of content or,

Tony:

developing a brand or something like that.

Tony:

You know why?

Tony:

Unless you feel like you don't have the time or the money to

Tony:

do it, what's stopping you?

Tony:

I started the IP Professor as a way to kind of have fun with

Tony:

IP and look where I am now.

Tony:

It's almost, it almost has given me a, a really good opportunity

Tony:

to network with a lot of great attorneys, but also gimme a really

Tony:

good opportunity to to, to sincerely consider how could I expand the brand?

Tony:

Could I work with brands in the future to monetize the account, where I could

Tony:

talk about IP and tryout or product.

Tony:

That's something I'm, I've been sincerely considering and

Tony:

blueprint blueprinting over time.

Tony:

And, and before that I was doing Law and Bating order

Tony:

and, and look what that got me.

Tony:

So I think that for content creator listening, don't feel dismayed if you

Tony:

feel like you're not gonna be able to put up the quality of like a top TikTok

Tony:

creator or a top YouTube creator, because I think whatever contribution

Tony:

you can bring to the table, We'll still tap into an audience and give you the

Tony:

opportunity to get a gateway into it.

Tony:

Consider it leisure and a hobby first, which is what I did.

Tony:

I still love it.

Tony:

I still consider it a leisure and hobby.

Tony:

It's essentially my getaway from a stressful day.

Tony:

And the fact that I could post a video and be able to engage with you guys

Tony:

or with other people on in the comment section and, have banter about it to

Tony:

me, that that's what gives me joy.

Tony:

And so I think that it's important for creators to know that

Tony:

nothing is really impossible.

Tony:

You could, you can, you can just do something and somehow it's gonna be, it's

Tony:

gonna be creative, creative enough in the context of IP for it to, be protected.

Tony:

But certainly for the broader community, people are gonna want to, pay attention

Tony:

to, or at least, they may be stumble, they may stumble upon it, and then, voila.

Tony:

That's how virality kind of, kind of, happens.

Tony:

So those, I think were like the three things that I would Say, or

Tony:

not necessarily miscon, I would say misconceptions, but things that I've

Tony:

learned throughout the time that I've been teaching, the time that I've

Tony:

been working in this space, and even from my time running the IP professor.

Ray:

Yeah, I, I think you knocked it out on park on all three of

Ray:

those, especially that third one.

Ray:

Right.

Ray:

I think it's just so important because the toughest part of any business, like

Ray:

brands, huge businesses, huge brands, is just like building a community

Ray:

or just getting the word out there.

Ray:

And I think that there's so many people who don't realize like, , just sharing

Ray:

their own interest in something, right?

Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Ray:

like the IP professor.

Ray:

Just you share your interest in IP and like sharing what you're teaching

Ray:

your students, but to a, like a grander scale and just like anyone

Ray:

who wants to follow you, right?

Ray:

I think we're just seeing that just across the board and just seeing

Ray:

people kinda like chase their dreams, but like literally starting off with

Ray:

like the most niche interests, right?

Ray:

Like literally just being like, I like coloring books.

Ray:

I'm going to film

Gabe:

myself color, like just doing this coloring

Ray:

book with like low five beats and next thing like they're slowly

Ray:

growing a community of people who like, also like coloring books,

Ray:

adult coloring books, right?

Ray:

And then are interested in like, Hey,

Ray:

what

Gabe:

pens do you use?

Gabe:

Hey, what,

Ray:

what are your favorite coloring books?

Ray:

And what are your recommendations?

Ray:

All of a sudden now they have like, influence over people.

Ray:

Now they have influence over brands, right?

Ray:

They can get the brand deals from who, people who are selling the pencils,

Ray:

people who are selling the coloring books and like, it's just like they took.

Ray:

Just being able to do their passion and then turn it into being like

Ray:

an influencer in that space and then creating opportunities.

Ray:

And Gabe's the perfect example of that.

Tony:

Absolutely.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

No, and that, and

Gabe:

that's key, I think for, for anything, right?

Gabe:

Is that to just put it out there.

Gabe:

Just, just actually just do it.

Gabe:

Just put it out there, whether you get one view or a million views, like as

Gabe:

long as you're happy, doing the thing.

Gabe:

I actually just read an article yesterday and which is so like, it, like it

Gabe:

was literally directed towards me.

Gabe:

Apparently in there, the toy industry is, has one of the biggest growth,

Tony:

Markers for in years, but it's all

Gabe:

due to the.

Gabe:

Toy

Tony:

buyers and there's this whole thing,

Gabe:

yeah, there's this whole thing about, I think they're

Gabe:

called they labeled, labeled adults or something like that.

Gabe:

I

Tony:

was like, yeah, gonna call myself.

Tony:

I identify as a adult . Basically

Gabe:

they're saying there's whole movement of like

Gabe:

adults in this generation,

Tony:

probably our age, right?

Tony:

That, that are

Gabe:

trying to get this nostalgic feeling back, that are trying to get, it just, you

Tony:

know, feel good about, their, their childhood and stuff.

Tony:

And all of a sudden we've seen that trend happen.

Tony:

And again, I see it because of my content.

Tony:

There's so many

Gabe:

accounts doing that with toys, with,

Tony:

posters, with, I mean, anything related to, to their childhood memories.

Tony:

And again, it's their passion,

Gabe:

Your passion, ip and it's more specifically I love

Gabe:

the fact that you like, like.

Gabe:

the geeky ip, right?

Gabe:

Yeah.

Gabe:

Cause obviously that's near and dear to my heart,

Gabe:

. Tony: And again, people

Gabe:

authenticity of it.

Gabe:

We appreciate it, obviously the way you come across and the

Tony:

way you show up on, social

Gabe:

media it's, it's genuine, it's

Tony:

entertaining and it's educational,

Gabe:

right?

Gabe:

I mean, we, we learned stuff from, from your, you, your post all the time.

Gabe:

And we're like, oh man, I didn't realize that.

Gabe:

And can we go look it up?

Gabe:

Yeah.

Gabe:

This is

Tony:

great.

Tony:

Great.

Tony:

I love that you verify it.

Tony:

That's even better.

Tony:

That's, I mean, that was holding,

Gabe:

that was just for

Gabe:

Yeah.

Gabe:

The IP professor said it.

Gabe:

It's, it's . That was just for me to like, pretend

Tony:

that I'm like, right, exactly.

Tony:

. Exactly.

Tony:

Exactly.

Tony:

But, but yeah.

Tony:

But thank you so

Gabe:

much for, for jumping on and joining us is obviously we love

Gabe:

hanging out and Like I said, if you ever, need anything, we're here

Tony:

and we're here to support your account and you, what you're doing.

Gabe:

Like I said, we're, we're big fans and for anyone listening,

Gabe:

watching, please make sure to follow the IP professor on basically all

Tony:

social media, right?

Tony:

Yeah, pretty much all, all social media.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

Including YouTube.

Tony:

And we'll link it

Gabe:

below.

Ray:

Yeah.

Ray:

And yeah.

Ray:

Thank you Professor T when, when I'm in New York next time we

Ray:

have to, to definitely link up.

Ray:

I know that this trip I'm there.

Ray:

Like I'm, I was very sad to hear you.

Ray:

Gonna Disney la Disney World next week, but enjoy that.

Ray:

And yeah, at one point we'll, we'll link up, you

Tony:

know what in San Diego come through.

Tony:

Absolutely.

Tony:

Well, absolutely.

Tony:

I would love to come out there first.

Tony:

Thank you guys for just this opportunity.

Tony:

But Ray, next time you're out there, I think the only reason why we couldn't

Tony:

meet this time is I think Long Island wouldn't be able to sustain Yeah.

Tony:

Of both of us, two juggernauts being in the same island, . So I think it's just

Tony:

preparing itself for the next meeting when that they were to come, who was.

Tony:

Basically by proxy at, honorary Long Island.

Tony:

Forget it.

Tony:

Like , TAMIS earthquakes.

Tony:

Yeah.

Tony:

Last time we had earthquake was in 2011 when I was a one L.

Tony:

It, it's, it's I'm telling it's gonna be a Long Island.

Gabe:

Yeah.

Gabe:

It's island, not ants.

Tony:

I'm learning.

Tony:

I'm learning.

Tony:

Oh man.

Tony:

You're t in the vernacular, so, well,

Gabe:

Yeah,

Gabe:

. Ray: But Professor t thanks again.

Gabe:

Thanks for sharing so many gems with our, our audience and we

Gabe:

look forward to what's to come in the future for the IP professor.

Gabe:

We definitely, I appreciate

Tony:

it guys.

Tony:

Thank you so much guys.

Tony:

I really appreciate it.

Ray:

Great.

Ray:

What an episode.

Ray:

There was so much information packed in there.

Ray:

Thank you for so much, professor t for just breaking down some complex IP topics

Ray:

in a way that's just like easy and fun to learn even on this podcast, but just

Ray:

like how you do in your own content you

Gabe:

create.

Gabe:

Yeah, absolutely.

Gabe:

And it's

Tony:

really my favorite part is, is really kind of getting to the point.

Gabe:

IP surrounds us.

Gabe:

It penetrates us.

Gabe:

It surrounds us.

Gabe:

I'm like getting, getting into Star Wars geekiness there.

Gabe:

But for real, I mean, IP is everywhere from the clothes that we wear to the

Gabe:

music we listen to, to the shows we watch.

Gabe:

So, it's, it's very important to understand intellectual property

Gabe:

and, again, the IP professor, he, he does a great job at doing

Ray:

that.

Ray:

So, yeah.

Ray:

Once again, if you are interested in learning more about intellectual

Ray:

property, but in a more fun and engaging way, give Tony a follow

Ray:

at the IP professor on TikTok.

Ray:

Yep.

Ray:

Instagram and YouTube

Gabe:

now as well.

Gabe:

Yep, absolutely.

Gabe:

So thanks again for listening guys, and

Tony:

we will see you next

Gabe:

time.

Gabe:

Yeah.

Gabe:

Have a good one.

Gabe:

Cool.

Gabe:

Happy holidays.

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About the Podcast

Rise & Flow
Inspiration from Top Creators and Business Owners
Hey there! Ray & Gabe here, your friendly neighborhood attorneys of in|flow law group! Join us as we interview multi-passionate entrepreneurs and creators who are willing to share their stories and how they were able to turn their passions into purpose! If you're an aspiring business owner or creator, you're not going to want to miss out on these episodes full of inspirational, educational, and empowering gems!

in|flow law group, is a law firm dedicated solely to creators and the modern day multi-passionate entrepreneur. We offer services to help empower our clients in protecting their business, building their brand, and prioritizing their intellectual property. We also offer a subscription based legal services, so every business can have access to an attorney - no matter the size. To learn more about our law firm, check us out at https://www.iminflow.com/

About your hosts

Rayman Khan

Profile picture for Rayman Khan
Ray is an easy going plant father and adventurous spirit. He heads up the brand strategy and contract practice areas for in|flow. His goal is to be the Anthony Bourdain of lawyers... whatever that means.
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Ray can help you secure a trademark, get your contracts aligned, and find the best spot in town to get dinner tonight. He's worked with creative and social entrepreneurs in the past, as well as serve as a climate policy advisor for the City of San Diego.

Ask him about his lunch with Desmond Tutu.

Leopoldo Estrada

Profile picture for Leopoldo Estrada
Gabe is a father, husband, business owner, and social media influencer! Oh yeah he’s an attorney too! His passion for art and music led him to open a successful tattoo shop that has been thriving for almost a decade. He’s also one of the biggest Star Wars fans you’ll meet, which landed him as an approved Disney/Lucasfilm social media influencer! His social media followings have over half a million followers and over 10 million views!

Besides helping you with all the legal stuff we do, Gabe’s experience in running a sustainable business and social media growth can be a lightsaber…oops, we mean a life saver for your project!

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